On today’s episode, we sat down with Tom Goodlet from Two Penny Publishing. Two Penny Publishing is a company created by Tom to help authors through the challenging process of taking your idea and putting it to paper. We talk about how they help authors overcome those challenges and publish the book they have always wanted. We also discuss Tom’s Journey of becoming a publisher and why he decided to help others get their ideas in to a book and out to the world. Tune in and click on the links below to get in touch with Tom.
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Tom Goodlet | Two Penny Publishing
In this episode, we sit down with Tom Goodlet of Two Penny Publishing. I’m looking forward to this conversation with Tom. He’s got his hands in a lot of different stuff and businesses. I’m super excited to pick his brain. Let’s not wait anymore. Let’s get into it.
Tom, how are we doing?
We’re doing fantastic.
Thank you so much for jumping on the show with me.
Thanks for having me, Donnie.
I appreciate your time. I know you’re busy and got a lot going on. You do a lot of stuff.
I do have my hands on a few things.
I’m looking at your website and it’s like author, publisher and pastor. You wrote your book. You’re a business owner. You do some speaking, leadership training and stuff. Where did all this come from? The reason I reached out to you is because of your publishing company, Two Penny Publishing. Talk to us about what led up to that.
It’s been a journey. I’ve been in full-time vocational ministry for several years. That has been my occupation. I started in youth ministry and work with adults. We have the same problems, only grayer, less hair. It’s the same issues but that’s been a joy, a pleasure and an adventure. I’m the associate pastor at Harborside Christian Church. I had a conversation with the senior pastor. We were doing my annual review, which was pretty much, “You’re doing great. What do you want to talk about?” That’s what it was. I was like, “How about I share with you my dream?”
I had known by that time that I did not want to become a senior pastor. A lot of times when you’re the associate pastor, everybody assumes, “Someday, you’re going to leave the church and have your church someday.” That’s a fine path. I just did not feel called to that path. To me, that felt like I’d be jumping into a box and be very limited. People would probably be a victim of my weaknesses quite a bit in that way. I realize that from dipping my toes in some other areas and having some irons in the fires with some other friends, I felt more God was calling me to bring biblical principles into secular industries.
I let that dream loose. It’s gone. I don’t think my future is to go more into the church. My future is to go more beyond the walls of the church where I’m able to help people in the church. I love to be able to help more people outside the walls of the church. The senior pastor’s response is, “Great. We don’t lose you.” I’m glad that was his response. It wasn’t like, “See you. Your future’s not here. You’re not 100% in. Pack your bags.” He said, “Go whatever pace you want to go. We can all win in this.” I agreed as well. That has been the process for the last few years.
It was figuring out, “What does that mean?” I love leadership development and mentorship. The very first book that I published was on mentorship. I thought, what I’ve done inside the walls of the church with mentorship and leadership development, I’ll go ahead and do beyond the walls of the church. Maybe I’ll do online mentorship on leadership development. I had to build a website and right away had some people go, “If you’re doing this, we’d love to be a part of this,” and people I’ve worked with in the past. It’s nice to have good friends. We did that and sure enough, as soon as it went live, I got some clients. I’m like, “That’s fun.”
Is this for mentorship or leadership skills?
Online mentorship. A lot like coaching but a specific plan with it. I did it for a summer. I was like, “I don’t like this.” Here’s what I thought I’m supposed to be doing. I couldn’t quite pinpoint why I didn’t enjoy it. I enjoyed the people part of it. I liked that. What I realized in hindsight is I didn’t like that it was open-ended. In other words, it’s like, “This is when we start. This is when we finish. You have something to show for it.” I’m a projects guy. I like to build things which people can be part of that, enjoy, walk away with something and we can go, “Now on to building the next thing.”
It felt more like counseling and open-ended, which is great for some people, not great for me. In the meantime too, I’m going, “I’m a pastor. What credibility do I have outside the walls of a church?” I thought, “I needed to do something to give people an excuse to invite me to their secular organization where I can show I have something to offer.” I decided I’d write a little pamphlet and that turned into a book. It turned into, “There’s a path if I wanted to,” that I did go for a best-selling book on Amazon. I learned that path. In January of 2019, I had a book come out on Amazon called Blind Potential. The idea is that we can’t always see the potential we have but I believe we’re packed and loaded with it.
Are you able to see the methodologies behind that? The month that it came out, we had about twenty people ask me and another person who helped me put the book together said, “I’ve always wanted to do a book. Could you get a book out to the world and maybe even a best-seller?” We were like, “We know how to do that.” We weren’t trying to get into publishing but enough people asked for that help. We said, “Maybe we could do this for people for this price. We put on a little PDF.” Five days later, we had 4 clients put 50% down. I was like, “I guess we’re a publishing company.”
Your imperfect published book is better than your perfect unfinished one.
Here’s what I learned. I get to coach people on how to build something. There’s a start date and an end date. At the end of it, they have a best-selling book to show for it. We keep hearing the stories back of how it’s helped them with their businesses and get this great message out to the world. I love the fact that there’s a start and an end and you have something to show for it. I still get to coach.
There’s leadership development and mentorship all through it. Taking what we’re learning, we’re pouring that into other people. It was a better idea than the one I came up with. It’s where we landed. It came out of a need rather than a cool idea. I’ve been doing that. The company is going strong. We doubled the revenue from the year before and the clients were already on pace to double again. It’s been an exciting ride.
You get to do everything that you enjoy like the mentorship part of it. You have a start and end date of a project like, “Here’s what we do.”
Here’s what’s happened since because it’s taken off, it’s also opened doors for me to do more speaking engagements on leadership development. There’s a leadership course I teach. I’m teaching it locally for my clients but I’m also being hired to teach it for a company to go around the country and teach it. That opened up that door and I’ve gone part-time at the church. The publishing has taken off so well because the speaking engagements have taken off so well, which honestly I love. I get to go and help out at church and leave then go help people pull down the walls of the church, which has always been the dream.
Going back to writing a book, what made you want to write a book? What is that process like?
Let me be honest right away. I don’t like to read or write. My fourth book is coming out. This is part of it too and it’s okay, to be honest about that. A lot of times, you’re either an author who speaks or a speaker who writes. You’ve seen them. They write great books and you put them in front of a camera or on stage and you’re like, “How did this person put two words together?” Speaking is not their medium.
I love speaking from the stage. I love the presentation. That’s something that I enjoy. For me, writing became another medium to get great messages out to people who need them. That’s what it became. Book is a medium that hasn’t gone away. It’s only increasing. We still use books to give people credibility. In other words, if you put out a book, all of a sudden, you go from obscurity to credibility and then you’re an author. You’re an expert whether you deserve it or not.
Think of any conference you’ve ever gone to or any workshop leader. They teach you something and go, “You can pick up my book back at the merch table.” That book qualified them to teach what they taught. When we put out a book, I look at it as a college diploma. You start it, finish it and have something to show for it. You grow along the way but this says you have this education or you know what you’re talking about at some level.
A book still qualifies for that. Credibility was a big part of it. To learn the process was another reason to do it. To get messages out that I believed could reach a broader audience if it was in paperback or Kindle. I buy books on Audible too and all those methods. With books, the pathway it can go is amazing and how many people it can reach. I got people in Africa reading my book. It’s cool that you can help people like that where it’s like, “I’d love to help you out. Meet me in Safety Harbor.” That’s a broad scope of what you can do.
What is the process of writing a book? How long does it take? I’m sure it varies depending on the book, person and stuff.
It varies depending on the person. One of the things we do with our authors is one, we decide if we’re a good fit. We don’t take just anybody. We publish the book. Our branding and name are on this book. We want it to be a high-quality product when it comes out. We look for people who are humble and hungry. In other words, they are ready to get this message out. They’re smart and got good people skills. It’s a major project where you’re working with a good collection of people who are on your team to help make this happen. We also do a personality test with our authors.
Before you hire them as a client?
Not before. If they’re humble, hungry and smart, we’re like, “This is a good fit. We can work with you and you can work with us. We’re going to partner up.” We call it partnership publishing. After our first session together, a lot of times I can gauge it too but we want to do a personality test for multiple reasons. One, I want to know who I’m working with. We’ve all got strengths and weaknesses. Some people are more perfectionists so that’ll help me the cue and go, “You’re going to slow yourself up. You’re going to want to start refining your book before it’s even written.” There’s an old joke, “My imperfect published book is better than your perfect unfinished book.” There is a bit of that but we want to know what we’re working against. We also want to know what is often the best solution to our problem as a person.
Let’s say you’re real charismatic and a real people person. Typically with that comes disorganization. We can be like, “You need to get more organized.” Let’s say you work your butt off to get more organized. At best, you’ll do mediocre and feel halfway good about it because it’s not in the flow of who you are. If we were able to team you up with somebody who could help organize you then you can go, be that people person and show up to the event, which is what I do. I have somebody else who runs my schedule. I get to show up to things like this. I didn’t even know where it was but they put the address and everything. I click on the button, show up and there you go.
That’s good because a lot of times the best answer to our weaknesses and problems is another person. It’s the same in writing. It takes a team of people. You’re going to need some creative people. If you’re not very creative, you’re going to need those personalities to be able to send you. Maybe you are very organized. You may need some people to help market this better because you are charismatic and know how to get people excited and enthused about a book. It helps us figure out what we’re working on. That being the case, knowing the personality also helps determine how long this process is going to take. I got to tell you which personality you are. You asked how long it does take.
What we tell our authors is, “Once you’ve turned in your final manuscript, that’s the unpredictable.” I have some authors never published. They went to a Tony Robbins seminar. They’re like, “If I want to do anything in business, I need to put out a book.” That’s where they start. They’re like, “I don’t even know what I’m writing.” We’ll start there wherever they’re at and work a book. I’ve got other clients who had a manuscript sitting on their shelf for years and didn’t know what to do with it. That can move along a little faster. We want to run it through some things to make sure it’s high quality.
You already have content. A lot of times, people just don’t see that they’ve already written a book, only waiting to be put into print.
Once that author turns in the final manuscript, you’re looking at typically about 90 days. We’re going to run it through an editor or a proofer. We’re going to format it into a book. You got to speak all that language. Audible, Kindle and paperback or a hardcover are all different languages. You got to have people who were able to speak those languages and could format them into those languages. It’s going to be formatted. We’re going to proof the proof, cover design, headshots, everything it takes to put it into a book. You’re looking about 90 days from the time we have the content solidified until it’s out to the world, selling and you’re starting to collect royalties.
Depending on the person and how long it takes.
Wherever they are in the process, a lot of times, how much of a perfectionist they are, how much of it they get done. Let’s say they’re not much of a perfectionist and they want to knock this thing out. They do it and we go, “That’s great. We need to spend some time proofing this.” You spend a little extra time making sure because you probably wanted to get it done. There are a lot of things and errors probably sitting there.
I think of writing a book. I’m like, “There’s no way I could write that much content to fill a couple of hundred pages.” My question is if you’re like, “I want to write a book but I don’t know where to start,” what’s your thought?
My thing would be you’re already writing. Like by doing this show, you can take transcriptions of what you’ve learned or some of your favorite lessons from this show. It’s a book. You work in and help people all the time with real estate and all this. You have conversations every day and questions you answer, stories you tell, ways in which you help people. You communicate with them every day. A lot of times, it’s putting it down on paper. It doesn’t mean you are typing or writing it either anymore.
There are all sorts of transcription stuff. There’s also ghostwriting. There are all sorts of ways to go ahead but the content is already in you. That’s something we coach too. You have conversations all day. If you were to take that, that would fill a book. You would have one right there. It’s looking at it in that way. We have something too.
One of the things we coach through is what we call scars. In other words, like the stories you tell. It’s an acrostic but there are conversations within their concept. You continually communicate to your clients and stuff like that. What are the questions and answers you get? You’ve got content. A lot of times, people don’t see that and you’ve already written your book in most cases. It’s just taking that new medium to put it into print.
What you can help with is the process of taking your thoughts and putting them to be sure.
That’s what we do all the time and you’re going to get stuck along the way. Here are the stats. I believe it was New York Times that did this. They put together that 81% of Americans say they have a book in their head or heart somewhere. Less than 1% get it out to the world. You’re in the majority like, “I got a book.” If you start listening for it, you’ve got a cousin, an aunt, an uncle, a coworker or whoever going, “I’m going to write a book someday.” That’s all you ever hear. They never do anything with it.
The other stat is that 90% of the people who start writing their book don’t make it past chapter two. We start well but a lot of times, we don’t know if we’re on the right path and we don’t know where to go from there so we’ll stop. There are all sorts of reasons we get stuck. The best answer to our problems is typically another person. That’s a misconception when writing a book too. You’re like, “I’ll lock myself in a closet. Put words on paper. I’ll be discovered someday and they’ll be nice to work.”
That’s not how it works for anybody, including the authors we think about, except JK Rowling, the author of Harry Potter books. It took her seven years, with the help of a literary agent, to get a traditional publisher to publish the first Harry Potter book. It is a journey. It takes other people to help you get there. That’s the same with any major project but the same with the book. You need people to help you when you get stuck and we have several things we do to help our authors get on stuck. We’d help coach it to see the content you have but a lot of times, we’ll help coach it and even organize it. When you get stuck and can’t see it, it always helps to have that other perspective. It’s a lot easier for me to get you stuck than it is for you.
That’s human nature. That is a condition of mankind. We were never meant to be alone. Playing the pastor card, if you go back to the very first problem that shows up in the Bible, it’s not sinning. It’s God’s creating things going, “This is good. The land, birds, animals and plants are good.” The first time God says something that is not good, he says, “It’s not good for the man to be alone,” so he creates a companion. From the very beginning, God’s like, “Autonomy is a lie. You weren’t meant to be fully independent and be your person. You were meant to be in a community of people and help each other achieve your dreams, hopes and purpose in this world.”
I want to talk about the business side of it too. I don’t know if you have a degree or a background in Business or anything like that.
I have a Master’s in Theology.
I have a degree in Biology so I’m using that one well. What is it like running a business? Are there some challenges along the way? What do you enjoy about it?
I love thinking about business, marketing, sales, distribution and management. A lot of people I run into are like, “I want to talk about church stuff.” I’m like, “I want to talk about widgets. That’s amazing.” The principles are the same in both ways. For me, it’s a hobby that’s switched to a vocation. It started as a, “I’ve been in the nonprofit world for so long. I wonder what the profit world’s like?” To me, it’s fascinating, the same principles that work whether you’re nonprofit or for-profit. It’s been fun, to be honest and something new to learn. I love something new to learn so that I can teach and help other people learn it. I’m learning a ton of business.
No one is meant to be fully independent. Everyone must belong to a community of people, working together to achieve a common purpose.
We most often learn by failing. I tell my kids all the time, “Sometimes you win. Sometimes you learn.” It’s one thing if you give up. I’ve learned a lot by trial and error. To me, there is this interest of, “How can I get better at sales, marketing, delivery, managing my company and the crew?” There’s always something new to learn and improve.
What I realize over is if you think you have to know it all to start it, you’ll never start it. It’s conation over cognition. Conation is the idea of you thinking about it enough to start it. Cognition is you think about it until you have the perfect plan. The reality is by the time you have the perfect plan, it’s no longer perfect because too much time has passed and things have changed. You’re too late for the party.
That’s like paralysis analysis. You keep analyzing it and it’s too late.
It’s better to try it out, fail a little, course correct, move forward, fail a little more and course-correct. There are all things we have in place in publishing that we’ve named after authors. I won’t tell you some of the policies but it’s mistakes to learn along the way. “This is the so-and-so policy.” We learned to like, “Won’t do that again.” We have this implemented and have this that’ll help us out.
Telling a story is a skill. Some people are gifted some people have it or it can be something that’s learned. What is your experience with telling a story? Is that something you’ve always been good at? I’m sure with the leadership stuff and everything that you’ve done in your history, that has helped you to be able to tell your story.
I would push this far to say it’s essential to be able to tell a story, especially if you want to do well in anything. The story is the most powerful form of communication we have. Everything’s a story. You and I are living in a story. If we can learn the key elements of the story, who we want to be in the story, how to communicate, how to story tell and help other people’s story tell, all of a sudden, we advance. The nice thing about communication and leadership is it’s a skill, which means anybody can learn and get better at it. The same thing with storytelling. It’s a piece of communication. We can always get better at it.
For one, you got to see the world and its opportunities that are presented as, “I could learn or navigate this.” There are always these possibilities. New problems bring new possibilities. That’s a lot of what storytelling is. You have a hero who comes up against an obstacle and has to find a way to do that. Often, you’re looking for a guide to help them do that. We want to market ourselves as guides and not the hero. In other words, you might help people make great real estate investments or integrate real estate questions and do that.
Mine is I’m going to help you get that book from your heart into your hand. I’m going to help you be that, “You’re the 81% but I’m going to help you become that 1% that gets their book out to the world. I can guide you. We’ve done it multiple times. I can guide and do that too.” That’s a story you and I get to be a part of. We market it as such. Our story is to help people with their stories in a lot of ways. To me, it’s a powerful thing we can always get better at.
The more we understand the big story, the little story and how to story tell, it will affect our marketing and closing on sales but it also affects the delivery of how we get our products out there and the type of products we have and tell. You could simply boil it down that a story is a problem and a resolve. You go into business because there’s a problem and you have a solution. You have to resolve it. If you’re a pastor and you’re on stage, we’ve got this problem and there’s truth in the scripture to get us to get it resolved. If you can learn that and better tell that, success is on the other side.
Do you have any tips that you could share on how to increase your skill of telling stories whether it’s your marketing or whatever it is?
There’s a lot out there. I’ll plug Donald Miller, who wrote a book called Building a StoryBrand. He has Business Made Simple and tons of stuff there when it comes to that. A lot of times, there’s a simple outline that I give for people who are trying to put a chapter together in a book or could it be the book in general but a lot of people are like, “I don’t know what I’m going to write.” It will start with a framework. An easy framework is great for sermons, books, commercials or anything. Typically, an introduction, something that hooks and catches your attention could be the opening.
You think of some of the opening lines to some of the greatest books and there are hooks in there, something to grab your attention but as quickly as you can, get to the problem. A lot of times, you can break down the problem with nouns. “I wanted 100-pounds overweight,” if you’re doing a weight loss book or something like that. “I need to get healthy but my problem is I don’t have the motivation.” Even there, you could probably break that down into subcategories that are nouns. Why don’t we have the motivation? Maybe another noun is a distraction. Maybe another one’s sugar. It’s delicious but a lot of times you can sub break down the problem for people with nouns and you lead them to a solution.
Typically, it’s a solution you’ve discovered. Often, when you’re writing a book or delivering a message, you’re talking to a younger version of yourself. “If I could go back in time and tell myself this years ago,” that’s a lot of times what your book is. That’s your audience too or your client. “Here’s what I’ve learned. I wish I could go back and relay this information.” A lot of times with that information, that solution is loaded with verbs. Maybe to gain motivation, you need to get up earlier. I don’t know. I’m not writing a weight loss book but it’s going to be verbs. It’s going to set an alarm or count your calories.
Even in the sentence structure, problems are typically nouns. Solutions are typically verbs. You could sub break down your chapter and messages. “Here are the 3 problems we need to be honest about and the three 3 to do to overcome them.” You conclude it with a movement piece thing something emotional. It could be the conclusion of a story you started with as an intro. It could be, “Here are some reasons why this works,” but something to help give an emotional motivation as you move forward.
That’s advertising. That’s in writing a book, in delivering a sermon or message. There are some very simple structures and they’re story-based. You think of any story you got, “Things were going great in the land of whatever. All of a sudden, a giant shows up.” How are we going to overcome the giant? They did this action, went on this adventure they overcame the giant. They live happily ever after.
You can almost break down anything successful. They are probably good at telling their story, whatever it is.
By the time you have the perfect plan, it is no longer perfect. Too much time has passed, and things have changed too late to the party.
In business, it’s the difference between labeling yourself according to a generic label. If somebody goes, “Tom, what do you?” I could go, “I’m a publisher.” That ends the conversation. I start with the problem I solve. “Your family members or colleagues and friends even on the internet or whatever that you hear, they always seem to be talking about this book they have in mind but they never seem to do anything with it? I’m the guy who helps them get that book from their heart into their hand. I’m the guy who gives the solution to that problem.” Right there is a more interesting conversation.
It’s like these me-too moments. We agree with the problem. Everybody wants to move to Florida. There’s not enough to buy a house here or get set up well and the speed at which it needs to happen seems impossible. I’m the guy who makes that impossible possible. I help them with something like that. That’s way more interesting than going, “I’m a real estate agent.” When you identify yourself with the problem you help people solve or how you help people solve the problem, you’re telling a story and inviting them into a story. A lot of times, you’re telling them their story and how you can guide them through the story.
I always tell my clients that books do about five things for you, at least. The one I shared moves you from obscurity to credibility. You’re credible because you do that. Books are door openers. I wouldn’t be sitting here having this conversation if I didn’t put out a book. It started a company, speaking engagements and a pathway. That’s what books do. Another thing is books are growth agents. What I get to see my clients do is they’re used to talking to people every day and stuff like that but a book forces them to organize what they have to say in a story-type format, even if it’s nonfiction. In a succinct, “If I was to organize it, here are the three things that I would care about or I’d want you to know, 3 steps you can take or 5.”
Book forces that organization for communication, which benefits you from then on. You have a better way of communicating so make sure how you do it. The other thing is books are cathartic. It’s something nice about getting that book off your chest and heart. When you work with a publisher that recognizes a traditional publisher, which we are. As a publisher, we’re recognized by the Library of Congress so we can get our client’s books into the Library of Congress. If your book ever goes out of print, it still lives on beyond you. Generations after your great, great grandkids can read your heart and words. That’s cool too. It’s something nice like, “I did something while I was on this planet alive and shared the knowledge I had that can be passed on.”
The fifth thing is books help people. I can think of pivotal books for my walk or journey that I’m like, “That changed how I saw that or helped me get on stuck here.” It typically goes back to a book. There’s something nice about knowing you’re part of something bigger than yourself and you’re helping people with that knowledge out.
The one book that changed everything and brought me to real estate was Rich Dad Poor Dad. That flipped my mindset of how I thought about my career, business, money and all of that. It’s cool that you brought that up.
For me, it’s 360 Degree Leader by John Maxwell. I was in a position at the time where as a supervisor, I was not pleased with it. His whole thing is, “You’re a leader no matter where you are in the org chart. You can decide to be a great leader whether you’re the big cheese in charge.” Wherever you are, we think leadership leads down to our subordinates. Leaderships lead across and it’s also leading up like, “That took away all my excuses.” I like to be a better leader with the dude above me. Start to be a better leader so you could do that and lead up. The 4-Hour Workweek by Tim Ferris, that’ll challenge all things, not to mention boost your productivity and How to Win Friends & Influence People. There are some bumps you’ll hear over but they’re life-changers.
It’s by Stephen Covey. Think about the people who’ve changed the world and a lot of times you can point their message back to the book.
I appreciate you. We could keep going on and on but we got to keep it short for the audience. It was a lot of fun, Tom. If somebody is interested in writing a book or how can they find you, what’s the best way?
If you want to get published and check us out, we’re at TwoPennyPublishing.com. There’s a big button right at the top of the page that says Get Published. That’ll queue you up for a little conversation where we get to talk about your book and the possibilities of the future of your book. The other thing too is I do teach that leadership course. If anybody wants to check that out or check out any other speaking engagements and stuff that I’m doing, you can go to TomGoodlet.com. I’m offering that course locally. If you’re in the Pinellas County area or something, you want to check that out and sign up.
Check them out, folks. I appreciate it again, Tom.
Thanks for having me, Donnie.
That was a fun conversation with Tom. He’s super passionate about what he does and has done lots of different stuff over his life. I hope you found some valuable information in that conversation. If you’re thinking about publishing a book, if you’re one of those 81% of people who have a book in their mind, reach out to Tom. He’s super helpful and a nice guy. He’d do a lot of great things for you. Thank you so much for reading another episode.
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- Tom Goodlet
- Two Penny Publishing
- Harborside Christian Church
- Blind Potential
- Building a StoryBrand
- Business Made Simple
- Library of Congress
- Rich Dad Poor Dad
- 360 Degree Leader
- The 4-Hour Workweek
- How to Win Friends & Influence People
- The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
- Get Published
- Apple Podcasts – Palm Harbor Local Podcast
- Google Podcast – Palm Harbor Local Podcast
- Spotify – Palm Harbor Local Podcast
- Stitcher – Palm Harbor Local Podcast
- Deezer – Palm Harbor Local Podcast
- YouTube – Palm Harbor Local Podcast